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I have to admit to a certain thrill of triumph when I found out that the Wonderbra went crawling home last year after two years of trying to hock their push-up bra to the women of China.
But one look into the average department store reveals that what lurks in (or on) the breasts of women is not modesty but rather frugality. For those not willing to fork over 300-600 RMB for a Wonderbra, the sales racks are filled with less expensive alternatives that look, at best, like light armor and at worst, like they could have a great social life even without me in them.
I wanted to get to the bottom of the mystery of why it is so difficult to find a bra that isn’t going to push up, enhance or maximize what one might just want left alone, dogged though I was with the nagging suspicion that the answers were all too obvious.
Saleswomen for the bras have reached a curious peace about the tautologies inherent in these bras. One manning a Triumph counter said that the bras are padded because Chinese women aren’t fengman (full) enough to fill out a bra and that they have underwire because women like a little bit of support for that new breastage bestowed by the padding.
If women show reluctance, it is about spending money on something that doesn’t improve appearances, claims a foreign bra manufacturer that wishes to go unnamed (hereinafter Bra Co.). “All women are alike. They like to dress up and get made up. They like to buy things,” said a company executive. “But if you give them 1,000 RMB, women from Japan, the States, China will all buy different things.”
Here I waited for the market analysts to blast open the mysteries of femininity. “In urban Japan, 10-20% of the money will be spent on underwear,” said Bra Co. “Chinese women are unlikely to spend much on underwear, because you can’t see it. They are more like to buy more clothes and makeup, outer things.”
Women in warmer South China tend to pay more attention to their undergarments than in Beijing, he says, but Beijing and Shanghai are bigger markets because of higher incomes.
Not surprisingly, then, the bra that sells best is the bra that has an effect on one’s outer appearance ? the “Maximizer” for Triumph and a push-up bra for Bra Co. When Bra Co. used a Japanese model in a 1997 ad campaign for a push up bra, sales fell and they switched back to Western models. “Asian women want their body shape to be fuller, they want that kind of body. They look in the mirror and say, ‘I’m not like that.’ They can use this method to get that kind of body.”
How, then, do bra companies tempt women into buying relatively expensive bras? Aside from accepting the slow progress of the market, German-based Triumph created a downmarket brand and adjusted their styles to fit local tastes, often pandering to the Western beauty standards that dictate the use of bust-enhancing bras.
Both Triumph and Bra Co. entered China to manufacture bras for export. In the past five years, they sensed the tides of fashion turning in China and entered the market.
Bra Co. has not found it easy to turn around and sell upmarket products to the country of cheap labor that produced them, selling only around 100,000 bras per year in China versus 17 million in Japan. With bras priced around the 200 RMB range, their presence in China is still mainly for manufacturing.
Triumph came to China in 1994 to manufacture bras for export and entered the China market in 1995. They have taken a more accommodating approach to the market, doing direct sales and marketing downmarket products to introduce their brand to women.
Triumph circumvented the shopping centers by doing direct selling until it was banned by the government in 1998. For the four years that it lasted, they manufactured a less expensive line of merchandise (under 100 RMB as opposed to 100-200 RM:cool: and sold to women of middle-level incomes, mostly housewives. Direct sales accounted for 60% of their sales.
Now they manufacture a less expensive line (around 60 RM:cool: of basic cotton bras without underwire. They also sell in bulk to individual vendors who sell in shops not connected to large shopping centers. Bra Co. has also started using this cash-on-delivery method, though only on a small scale.
A Triumph representative said that they aim for a “fashionable” and “comfortable” image with “elegant” colors in China, as opposed to their Europe market, which aims more for a “classic” image. Last year, Triumph sold 2 million pieces in China ? less than 1% of the entire market, which is estimated to total 300 million pieces.
Both companies are riding the wave of women’s changing body image, hoping that increasing incomes will eventually allow women to fulfill their “natural desire” for fuller chests.
Hoping that the downmarket crowd might have a different opinion regarding these desires, I visited a small shop in my neighborhood that has an entire wall coated with plastic-wrapped bras, all around the 50 RMB range and all looking like breastplates.
Q: Why are these bras so padded?
A: Are you looking for something smaller?
Q: I can just never find any bras that aren’t huge. Why do they need to be so big?
A: To make Chinese women’s breasts fuller.
Q: Why do women want fuller breasts?
A: It looks better.
Q: What’s wrong with small breasts?
A: [Looks at mine] It doesn’t look good to be stick skinny.
Q: Are Chinese women trying to look like Western women, in your opinion?
A: Yeah, sure. [Starts painting nails.]
I have to admit to a certain thrill of triumph when I found out that the Wonderbra went crawling home last year after two years of trying to hock their push-up bra to the women of China.
But one look into the average department store reveals that what lurks in (or on) the breasts of women is not modesty but rather frugality. For those not willing to fork over 300-600 RMB for a Wonderbra, the sales racks are filled with less expensive alternatives that look, at best, like light armor and at worst, like they could have a great social life even without me in them.
I wanted to get to the bottom of the mystery of why it is so difficult to find a bra that isn’t going to push up, enhance or maximize what one might just want left alone, dogged though I was with the nagging suspicion that the answers were all too obvious.
Saleswomen for the bras have reached a curious peace about the tautologies inherent in these bras. One manning a Triumph counter said that the bras are padded because Chinese women aren’t fengman (full) enough to fill out a bra and that they have underwire because women like a little bit of support for that new breastage bestowed by the padding.
If women show reluctance, it is about spending money on something that doesn’t improve appearances, claims a foreign bra manufacturer that wishes to go unnamed (hereinafter Bra Co.). “All women are alike. They like to dress up and get made up. They like to buy things,” said a company executive. “But if you give them 1,000 RMB, women from Japan, the States, China will all buy different things.”
Here I waited for the market analysts to blast open the mysteries of femininity. “In urban Japan, 10-20% of the money will be spent on underwear,” said Bra Co. “Chinese women are unlikely to spend much on underwear, because you can’t see it. They are more like to buy more clothes and makeup, outer things.”
Women in warmer South China tend to pay more attention to their undergarments than in Beijing, he says, but Beijing and Shanghai are bigger markets because of higher incomes.
Not surprisingly, then, the bra that sells best is the bra that has an effect on one’s outer appearance ? the “Maximizer” for Triumph and a push-up bra for Bra Co. When Bra Co. used a Japanese model in a 1997 ad campaign for a push up bra, sales fell and they switched back to Western models. “Asian women want their body shape to be fuller, they want that kind of body. They look in the mirror and say, ‘I’m not like that.’ They can use this method to get that kind of body.”
How, then, do bra companies tempt women into buying relatively expensive bras? Aside from accepting the slow progress of the market, German-based Triumph created a downmarket brand and adjusted their styles to fit local tastes, often pandering to the Western beauty standards that dictate the use of bust-enhancing bras.
Both Triumph and Bra Co. entered China to manufacture bras for export. In the past five years, they sensed the tides of fashion turning in China and entered the market.
Bra Co. has not found it easy to turn around and sell upmarket products to the country of cheap labor that produced them, selling only around 100,000 bras per year in China versus 17 million in Japan. With bras priced around the 200 RMB range, their presence in China is still mainly for manufacturing.
Triumph came to China in 1994 to manufacture bras for export and entered the China market in 1995. They have taken a more accommodating approach to the market, doing direct sales and marketing downmarket products to introduce their brand to women.
Triumph circumvented the shopping centers by doing direct selling until it was banned by the government in 1998. For the four years that it lasted, they manufactured a less expensive line of merchandise (under 100 RMB as opposed to 100-200 RM:cool: and sold to women of middle-level incomes, mostly housewives. Direct sales accounted for 60% of their sales.
Now they manufacture a less expensive line (around 60 RM:cool: of basic cotton bras without underwire. They also sell in bulk to individual vendors who sell in shops not connected to large shopping centers. Bra Co. has also started using this cash-on-delivery method, though only on a small scale.
A Triumph representative said that they aim for a “fashionable” and “comfortable” image with “elegant” colors in China, as opposed to their Europe market, which aims more for a “classic” image. Last year, Triumph sold 2 million pieces in China ? less than 1% of the entire market, which is estimated to total 300 million pieces.
Both companies are riding the wave of women’s changing body image, hoping that increasing incomes will eventually allow women to fulfill their “natural desire” for fuller chests.
Hoping that the downmarket crowd might have a different opinion regarding these desires, I visited a small shop in my neighborhood that has an entire wall coated with plastic-wrapped bras, all around the 50 RMB range and all looking like breastplates.
Q: Why are these bras so padded?
A: Are you looking for something smaller?
Q: I can just never find any bras that aren’t huge. Why do they need to be so big?
A: To make Chinese women’s breasts fuller.
Q: Why do women want fuller breasts?
A: It looks better.
Q: What’s wrong with small breasts?
A: [Looks at mine] It doesn’t look good to be stick skinny.
Q: Are Chinese women trying to look like Western women, in your opinion?
A: Yeah, sure. [Starts painting nails.]
For the past week or two, my pregnant wife has been noticing the first signs of baby movement, and tonight, for the first time, I felt it for myself. Really quite an amazing experience! I rested my head and hands on her slightly swollen belly and within a few minutes I felt the baby move several times, each time confirmed by my wifes smiling face and nodding head.
This simple event makes the pregnancy become that much more real, for both of us.
There REALLY IS a little LifeMage in there!
Anyways, this brings us to seek answers to some of the questions that arise with a due date that slowly approaches.
A few years ago I dated a doula, studying midwifery at the time, and who is now a midwife. I learned a lot about natural birth, hospital birth and birth in general.
I will do everything I can to find alternatives to the impersonal, cold, technology dependent birth that most hospitals provide (here or at home). I personally know atleast 5 practicing midwives back home (in Canada) but it seems finding any here would be another story.
Does home birth exist here?
Are there any midwives in Shanghai?
I just read an article about a hospital here that has a water birthing pool, that seems like a step in the right direction. Ideally, we’d want to have a water-birth, at home, with an experienced midwife present.
Am I dreaming? could that happen here?
I’m not sure if flying back home to have the child is an option…but it’s something we would consider.
I’ve also day-dreamed of flying one of my midwife friends over to assist in the birth, but it’s not likely something I could afford.
So, does anyone know of any natural birth options in Shanghai?
Wake up ! – natural birth at home sounds very nice when you don’t have to go through the contractions & trouble of giving birth yourself.
Once your wife will deliver I’m sure she will appreciate modern medical equipment and the assurance of having a doc at hand when needed.
Home-birth might be an option after three births at hospital (when you know how it works…)
Thanks for the uninformed opinions,
but…NOT what we’re looking for.
My sister who just returned from living in England for a few years is pregnant. Before she knew she was coming home she took birthing classes.
In her area of England at least giving birth at home is now the norm and strongly encouraged by the medical community. Thank god mid-wifery is coming back in vogue.
Actually NATURAL position for giving bird is vertical, the horizontal which is used in hospital is for COMFORT OF THE DOCTORS !
^so true.
Birth is a perfectly natural human function.
The medical system treats it as if it was a disease.
The woman’s own body KNOWS what it’s doing, more so than any doctor in the world.
All I’m interested in, is providing the environment that allows my wife to be in control.
I have so many comments about this topic after going thru watching my wife in labor and assisting in the birth, but I get the feeling maybe it would also be dismissed as uninformed opinions as it likely contrasts with the answers you are looking for .
But I agree that it’s about what your wife wants, not what we, as men dictate is best for them. Definitely supplying her with all the information possible about ALL the options would be best. A water birth is supposed to be absolutely amazing for the mom and baby though.
I’m NOT an expert, but I believe I’m fairly well informed.
…and being male, I’ve never personally given birth to a child.
I HAVE lived with a woman for 1 year, who was intensively studying midwifery at the time, and I do have many friends that are practicing midwives and /or doulas, many other friends that have had their children naturally, as well as having a father that’s a retired GP, and who has delivered many babies, in hospitals, as well as at home-births.
I don’t want to debate the benefits of natural birth over hospital birth (or vice-versa).
Just hoping that someone out there knows about natural birth options in Shanghai.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
You may wish to check out Mei Ka Chin who’s a midwife from United Family Hospital in Shanghai.
We had a natural birth with her. More information can be found at other birthing threads under “Family & Kids” section.
I believe another forumer had a home birth in Shanghai and is active in the local LLL. Her name slips my mind though. HTHs.
Talking about “natural birth” – it does not necessarily means that you have to deliver at home.
It is possible to have a natural birth (i.e. no C-section) in Shanghai’s hospitals. I delivered “naturally” at International Peace & Maternity and although the delivery was not easy (and I’m sure in Europe they would have cut me open) they didn’t even suggest C-section at any time.
It helped that I had a birth plan (but they only sticked to the big points of the birth plan). They also seemed to be keen on reducing the rate of C-sections at IPM.
Don’t want to be dismissed again as giving “uninformed opinions” but just be prepared for anything – it might go well & fast (a friend of mine delivered in a car), it might require some serious medical backup operations…
Good luck!
I would be especially wary of water-births here…the water quality is not so good. I haven’t heard of anyone doing natural at-home births around here. I had my baby in August at Parkway and needed an emergency c-section.
Having one of your mid-wife friends come over might be fine, but be sure to coordinate with a local hospital for any eventualities your wife might experience (tearing needs to be repaired) and to have your baby examined and registered.
You will get a Chinese birth certificate which you need to file for your home citizenship.
I’m sure there are other things to coordinate as well. Just be sure to get proper prenatal care and be a little flexible in case things don’t turn out exactly as planned and she or the baby does need the cold, impersonal medical equipment. Good luck.
I have so much to say about this! My first birth was a hospital birth and all the interventions that went along with it, in Shanghai at American/Sino OBGYN at Huashan Hospital.
For our second birth we decided to birth at home unassisted. It was lovely! Calm, loving, peaceful, serene and everything we had hoped for. I labored in the tub and eventually felt like pushing. 4 hour labor went really fast, virtually painless except for about 3 minutes during Transition where 6 drops of Rescue Remedy helped immensely.
The support of my husband and his strong firm belief in natural processes and my instinctive abilities was crucial for my success.
Forget about a hospital birth if you want truly natural (btw they call any vaginal birth here “natural” no matter whether forceps or drugs etc were used). I don’t have to tell you how a hospital atmosphere, frequent vaginal checks, constant monitoring, etc. causes all sorts of problems for the laboring woman’s hormones and actually CAUSES C-Sections, longer labors, undesirable outcomes, etc.
Mei Ka Chin (MK) is wonderful, I hear over and over, but she is a hospital employee and as such can only attend births in SH United Family Hospital (SH UFH). Even if MK were independent, I have been told that professionals lose their licenses for attending home births. They are explicitly warned against it (I suppose because of the risk of girl babies becoming infanticides? Just a guess).
There is a U.S. trained Certified Nurse Midwife here in Beijing. She is not licensed in China and is willing to attend home births in a doula capacity. I’ll post her info as soon as I find it. She may be willing to travel to SH frequently, and stay a couple of weeks, closer to when your wife is due.
I wish you luck! It sounds like you have your head on straight. I have some books I’d recommend (you can borrow if you promise promise promise to give them back!)
Spiritual Midwifery
Birthing From Within
Emergency Childbirth by Dr. Gregory White
The Birth Book by Dr. Sears
I also have a few good Natural Baby Care books (Dr. Lauren Feder, Elizabeth Pantley’s Gentle Baby Care, etc) and a few other misc. good books:
Dr. Robert Mendelsohn’s How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of your Doctor
Dr. Sherri Tenpenny’s DVD Vaccination: What the CDC documents and Science Reveal
Dr. Stephanie Cave’s book: What your Doctor May NOT Tell you about Children’s Vaccinations
Tomorrow’s Baby by Dr. Thomas Verny
Plus tons on Breastfeeding, Attachment parenting, Gentle Discipline, The Family Bed, etc! I have amassed quite a lopsided library to further my growth as a parent.
Your local LLL is also a good 1st step to network and meet other natural-minded (to varying degrees) moms. There used to be some L&D nurse who lived in Pudong but I don’t have her contact info… and another mom in SH who home birthed unassisted and even emailing her 1x gave me such hopefulness that I could, too!
Yes, LLL is a must. Someone there must know someone in SH willing to attend a home birth. Dang, If I lived closer and didn’t have two lil ones myself I would LOVE to! Okay also join Shanghai Mamas yahoo group and network there.
/profile/282-vickyvicky/?do=hovercard” data-mentionid=”282″ href=”<___base_url___>/profile/282-vickyvicky/” rel=””>>@vickyvicky I disagree. However if you are concerned you can put a cup of salt or so in it to lessen any bacteria present. But we brush our teeth with tap water, and bathe in it every day, and it fails to infect my mucous membranes or those of my little babies’…so it couldn’t be that bad for a birth. The water in Europe is also not potable in most places, and this is where Michael Odent MD did all his wonderful work with water birthing studies.
Some tearing (muscle) needs to be repaired, the skid marks can be left to heal on their own. I agree that filing your information at the closest hospital in advance is a good idea in case of cord prolapse, PP hemorrage, apoxia for baby, etc. Becoming familiar with these few instances where immediate transport is recommended is of course prudent. Spinningbabies.com can help you map the belly and find out baby’s positioning, and help give ideas to rotate baby to favourable positions, etc.
True. But if all is well with baby and mom you don’t have to go right away. Be prepared for nurses with quick needles just going about their procedures…in case you want to delay the standard newborn Hep- B and BCG (this is a live Tuberculosis vaccine) shots that they give newborns here. Heel Prick PKU test can likewise be delayed 3-4 weeks later.
I am offering doula services, but I am not officially certified as a nurse-midwife (In China, the “nurses” that work in the L&D units are called “midwives” but they do not have the same training or certification as what I think of as a midwife (I’m American).
Although I probably have enough experience to be considered a lay-midwife, I wouldn’t feel comfortable marketing myself as such. I think home births are fabulous option for those that are comfortable with it and 99% of the time everything is fine.
My only concern living in China is the access to care – and I literally mean – if there is a problem, do you know what hospital to go to and more importantly, how are you going to get there – do you have a driver available 24-7, taxi… – I wouldn’t count on the ambulances here and they are probably not going to take you to Shanghai United or Parkway.
How long will that take?
I have heard wonderful things about MK Chin at Shanghai United and right now I’m in the final stages of accepting a position with Parkway to help Alice with the OB services there.
I hope to create more options for women to be able to have a positive labor and delivery experience in Shanghai.
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